Nouvelle Frame Armattan (BADGER)

[Hesiodes]

Hello les gars,

J'étais entrain de faire fonctionner la garantie Armattan pour une marmotte un peu fatiguée lorsque je suis tombé là dessus...

https://www.armattanquads.com/badger-1/

J'ai manqué un épisode, ou ça vient juste de sortir???

@+

Bon vol !

 

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[quazardous]

c'est une marmotte démontable

[Hesiodes]

Une Marmotte avec les bras séparés, elle vient juste de sortir?

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[NrgtikFPV]

Je sais pas mais certains vont se jeter dessus.

[quazardous]

Moi je dis c'est moche de couper les pattes à un petit animal

[Qnnk]

Si ça résout certains problèmes de résonnance c'est cool

[Motard Geek]

Humm intéressant, j'ai loupé ça aussi 

Tant pour les vibrations que la maintenance c'est top  Par contre même pas de prise en sandwich des bras... 

C'est beau mais je me ferais pas avoir, de toute façon je suis passé sur la Mark4  

[quazardous]

il y a 13 minutes, Motard Geek a dit :

Par contre même pas de prise en sandwich des bras

ouais avec l'effet levier les petites vis avec 4 mm de prise sur le carbone ça fait short. ça sent la frame purement commerciale. le fait qu'elle soit arrivée incognito renforce cette impression.

[Hesiodes]

Le design est discutable en effet... Les bras séparés vont apporter un découplage niveau modes (vibrations) comparé à une main plate unibody... En contre partie, les premiers modes seront plus bas, à voir si c'est dérangeant.
L'absence d'une plaque sandwich ne devrait pas être significative sur le plan modale. La rugosité des surfaces étant trop faible et le serrage bien trop local... Il faudrait ajouter un collage entre les surfaces pour gagner en raideur (mais bon la Frame devient indémontable donc pas envisageable).
Par contre d'un point de vue contraintes mécaniques, l'absence de la plaque sandwich est bien plus dérangeante surtout sur un matériau composite... Les contraintes vont être très localisées...

Je pense aussi que ce design est un peu précipité... surement la conséquence du badbuzz qu'à subit cette Frame...

Comme dit précédemment je possède une marmotte (désolé je ne l'ai pas présenté dans Drone Build).
Je vole sous BF en 4s avec des Amax 2207.5 en 2700kv. L'ensemble (moteurs/FC) est softmount est je n'ai pas eu de pb de vibrations.
Récemment j'ai basulé en BF4 pour tester le mode RPM filter, la encore pas de pb de vibrations.
J'avais suivi avec bcp d'attention les publications de MG sur sa Marmotte vraiment surprenant ces perturbations !


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[quazardous]

Il y a 3 heures, Hesiodes a dit :

sa Marmotte vraiment surprenant ces perturbations !

qui a dit Parkinson

[Jerome]

Je viens de découvrir l'existence de cette frame en lisant le message de 15 pages sur Facebook de Armattan concernant l'explication des problèmes avec la Marmotte (en résumé, terminé le carbone spatial ). Et j'ai déchanté aussitôt en voyant la pauvre fixation des bras 

Modifié (le) Juillet 11, 2019 par Jerome

[Hesiodes]

Jérôme, je peux abuser de ta gentillesse ?;) Peux-tu partager le message en question ?
Merci d'avance

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[Motard Geek]

 https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=710688429379693&id=251703185278222

[Jerome]

oups : doublé...  

Oui bien sûr, c'est ici : https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=710688429379693&id=251703185278222

Sinon copier/coller :

Citation

Hello all,
I have been reluctant to write this, and it is with a bit of a loaded heart that I do it. But it has to be done. Long post alert. I need to share some information about the space grade CF we’ve been using since March 2019 for our latest flagship release, the Marmotte. This will not be a short read.
Jon Esca recently made some reviews about the Marmotte, and about the carbon fiber we’re using. You can find his channel here. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTSwnx263IQ0_7ZFVES_Ppw I mention Jon’s channel because I like his work , but also because of a comment he made in his latest video about Armattan. His comment really hit home for me. Jon more or less questioned the R & D process at Armattan since his findings are that the original CF is more resilient to breaking than the space grade CF. This letter is to answer Jon’s query, and it is also to keep you all in the loop at the same time.
We spent a very long time running tests with the new CF. At first we had issues with getting the parts cut properly because the material is harder to cut. We eventually contracted an experienced CNC shop in Canada that was able to cut the sheets well enough. Mind you, for the first time we also include a small diamond burr with the frame kits because the material simply isn’t cut as clean as by our own long lasting standards. It’s new stuff, and a completely new territory. We have not, however, received a single complaint about the cutting quality so maybe the small files needed not to be included. Hat’s off to Nick at CNC Madness for doing that for us.
At first, we had the same place that makes the CF cut the CF for us and they just could not do it well. We asked Nick to try and he fine tuned his machines and operation to be able to manage this carbon fiber, but not without complaints. (It is much harder to cut than the usual 3k CF the industry mostly uses.) Of course we had to test the CF so we purchased 2-3 CF plates at the time only and let Nick cut it. We then went ahead and tested this CF to see how it faired against our usual CF. We did real time stress tests on the CF and measured the weight needed to break it. Constantly, we were hovering between 25% and a staggering 35% more strength with the new CF, meanwhile the stiffness of the material needed no tests to be tangibly observed. The stuff is insane stiff. That’s when I started showing images online of the material. I felt that we were onto something and while it may not be revolutionary, it stood very good chances to be an advancement in the material we use on our models. And it is, so long as we can get consistent supply. Please read on.
One thing that is important to understand is that Armattan offers a lifetime warranty, as such, claims that we would hype a material for the sake of sales are inadequate, if not plain ludicrous. That would be akin to shooting ourselves in the foot. Armattan is the first and remains the only frame company to offer unlimited lifetime warranty. Put it in your will and we’ll honor the warranty for your grandson and granddaughter. This comes with a number of considerations, none of which inherently allow hyping poor quality material. This is unless we hoped to have more warranty claims and more burden on our support channels. In other words, we do not want the frames to break. Costs us money each time it happens.
Another thing I wish to explain here is that we are buying the CF from a US based shop that is a small company. They had to hire staff and invest in more machines in order to meet our high demand. Much like Nick at CNC madness, this was the biggest contract in the history of their company and it is ongoing, but not without difficulties.
Recently, I received an email from Nick. He explained that throughout the contract, there were inconsistencies in the material he received from the guys who make the CF. But he added that things were getting out of control. He mentioned that some sheets had so little resin that they just broke cutters and were almost impossible to cut. Like trying to cut loose fibers with a CNC. He attached some photos….. I am sharing one of these photos here. Look at it and guess which sheets/,main plates would make for a rather weak air frame….. 
The guys who make the CF mentioned it’s not a lack or resin but a heat issue, etc. But Nick and I agree it’s missing resin. To me it just looks like making 2-3 sheets is easy, while making hundreds led them to cut corners or make mistakes, and thus the result observed in the attached photo.
I had a number of main plates set aside from various sheets and I proceeded to revisit our stress tests now that we were using mass production version of this CF. Well this time the results were all over the place.  Some faired better than the OG CF by up to 30% while on the lower spektrum we’re at a mean 27% weaker than the original CF it was tested against. None made it past 30% in contrast to many early samples that did. Each plate is different. Some are solid, others have issues. ALL of them are stiff and seem good to go. I think this also explains the strange disparity between guys who say it’s the best stuff they’ve flown and guys who just say it breaks too easily.
Now the question is where does that leave us? My answer to that is to go back to the drawing board, so to speak. That’s all we can do, along with doing what we always do which is to honor warranty and top notch support. So fear not, no one’s warranty will be canceled under my watch. We still have your back.
We are, however, going to discontinue selling this material for the time being. Soon, only the OG CF will be offered for the Marmotte. We are not discontinuing the production of it, though, and I hope that by relieving stress on the CF makers, the quality will ramp back up. But the bottom line is that there are many, many pilots out there who swear by the new CF. They love it, and we’re not going to force anything else on them if they need to warranty their frame. In other words, we’ll not be selling it, but we’ll keep stocking it for warranty purposes to continue supporting pilots who prefer that CF.
Finally, I understand that a statement from Armattan has been long awaited. I have mentioned many times that we needed more data. We cannot even make a statement with only one month into a release. Guys need time to build their rigs and go crash them before the real life results come back to us. We’re four months in now. Don’t get me wrong, the numbers are not as awful as you may think after reading this, but yes, the numbers indicate that the new CF does generate a higher percentage of warranty claims. Quite frankly, the warranty claims isn’t my biggest concern. Disappointing some pilots, on the other hand, now that weighs on me a lot.
All I can say is we will not stop supporting you. Soon the Badger will be released. Any minute now. Along with that we are listing a Badger conversion kit. It includes all the hardware and CF parts needed to convert a Marmot into a Badger. Think Chameleon Ti and Rooster type of compatibility. Moreover, if you warranty a Marmotte main plate for a Badger conversion kit, we’ll throw in 2 extra spare arms for you. Please don’t think this is an effort to sway pilots away from the Marmotte. We may save a few bucks down the road if that happens, but this move here is not driven by numbers or margins. Those who know me well, know that I never forgot who I must remember for my little company’s success. And that’s you. If you own an Armattan frame, I am writing this for you. The spare badgers arms are for you, too. It’s only part of an ongoing pledge to keep you in the air.
Thank you all very much. And as usual, you know where to find us if anything happens.
Best,
Chris

Modifié (le) Juillet 11, 2019 par Jerome

[Hesiodes]

Merci les gars! [emoji106]

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[Hesiodes]

Pour avoir travaillé avec des fabricants de pièces carbone issue de l'industrie aéro, rien d'étonnant dans leur message. Effectivement ils ont du rencontrer pas mal de pb problème dans la découpe de ce carbone. (Habituellement découpé au jet d'eau haute pression).
Malheureusement, des fois le mieux est l'ennemi du bien. Avoir un châssis plus rigide n'est pas forcément un avantage il apporte avec lui d'autres problèmes, fréquences plus haute, amortissement plus faible, tolérance aux déformations moins importante...
Je leur jette pas la pierre, d'autant qu'ils assument leurs erreurs avec la garantie qu'ils assurent sur leurs produits.
La prise de risque pour leurs clients est assez réduite, et c'est tout le "hobby" qui profite de ces "Explorations"!


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[Jerome]

Oui, pour le coup, ils sont transparents et honnêtes, beaucoup de boites pourraient prendre exemple !

J'ai l'impression qu'ils se sont un peu fait rouler dans la farine par leur fournisseur qui dans un premier temps a livré des plaques nickel avant que ça devienne la grande loterie  

Mais c'est pas une excuse pour pas filer une sandwich plate avec le Badger 

[Hesiodes]

Par contre, je suis un peu surpris dans le message il laisse supposer que la fibre carbone qu'ils utilisent n'est pas du pré-imprégné... À ma connaissance, les carbones certifiés "aéro" le sont tous, et il y a très peu de fournisseurs...
Comme tu le soulignes Jérôme, il y a eu clairement une dérive du process entre les premiers protos et le passage en prod...

De toute façon, il y avait un truc qui clochait dans la structure de ce carbone dit "spatiale", les différentes couches sont trop "visible" ce qui n'est pas le cas dans les pièces certifiées![emoji11]

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[Yann84]

Hello,

 

Le pré-imprégné est forcément plus cher mais beaucoup plus contraignant à mettre en œuvre pour une petite structure...

En passant de 3 à 12k (ne l’ayant jamais eu entre les mains je suppose à vue) l’idée d’amélioration de la rigidité était claire puisque c’est l’idéal pour des panneaux en monolithique...

A titre d’exemple je me souviens qu’a rigidité équivalente, une plaque de fibre de verre de 1m x 1m avec 8mm d’épaisseur pesait 15kg alors que pour les même dimensions une plaque carbone monolithique avait seulement 5mm d’épaisseur pour 7kg...

 

 

 

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